Saturday, February 6, 2016

Geocentrism: The Debates - Scott Reeves vs. Nope, Part 1

Comments on YouTube video “TestingGeocentrism Part 2” by CoolHardLogic

Scott Reeves wrote (in a general comment directed at CoolHardLogic)::

Einstein and Stephen Hawking, and many other reputable scientists, say geocentrism works, but we're supposed to believe you that it doesn't?

Nope wrote:

No, you're supposed to believe the evidence gathered through observations, which clearly points out that geocentrism is bollocks. Also, I'm pretty sure none of those fellas actually believed for a second that geocentrism is an even remotely plausible explanation, but who knows? Even Newton said hillariously stupid shit back then so yeah.

Scott Reeves wrote:

Here is the ColdHardTruth that all you relativity supporters are going to have to accept if you want to be relativists: there is absolutely not a single shred of evidence you can put forward to disprove the geocentric reference frame. The geocentric reference frame is a perfectly valid reference frame in relativity.

The only thing you can do is try to talk me and other Geocentrists out of advocating an absolute Geocentric reference frame. How do you do this? You point out that relativity forbids an absolute reference frame, and then try to convince us that relativity has a hundred years of empirical evidence behind it. You tell us that it is the most well-tested theory in the history of science, and only a fool would reject an argument with that magnitude of empirical weight behind it. And if those tactics don’t work, you begin to pile on the mockery and the public humiliation in attempt to silence us.

That is ALL you can do. You all keep trying to prove that the Earth is in motion and the geocentric reference frame is invalid. News flash: that is most definitely not going to happen. If you think it will, you do not understand relativity. Trying to disprove the geocentric reference frame by saying that the Earth is definitely in motion is just the opposite of what I do by advocating the absolute Geocentric frame: you are trying to prove a frame of absolute motion. So by denying geocentrism in any form you’re also working hard to try to disprove relativity.

When you eventually come to accept this ColdHardTruth and start putting forth the proper argument against absolute Geocentrism, I will still reject you, because I utterly reject relativity on the grounds that it is pseudo-science, so I really don’t care if relativity forbids an absolute reference frame, and I reject the claim that relativity has the weight of empirical evidence behind it and is the most well-tested theory in modern science, because it cannot possibly have been properly tested, because all that alleged evidence is merely control data that has been gathered from within a geocentric frame and is awaiting replication in another reference frame at a cosmologically significant distance from Earth (yes, I know, run-on sentence).

Relativity is pseudo-science, and I don’t care how many “reputable” and intelligent scientists support it, scientific and empirical truth is not decided by how many people believe in a theory.

Nope wrote:

You know, you're saying all this nonsense right under a video that is part of a 12-episode series talking about why the geocentric view is inconsistent with our observations and therefore utterly useless for humanity. In every video there is at least 3 to 10 points why your model is unviable , many of them using simple math and basic scientific theories like gravity etc.

You know, the thing is, you can come up with as many frames as you want to describe the universe with the same amount of arrogance you display, but no matter how much you think reality depends on what science you "accept", at the end of the day it's always the practical usability that decides wich model is more plausible. If a model has efficient predicting capabilites, we use that and ignore the ones that hold no practical value to us or flat-out contradict our observations. We launch satelites into space and maintain them on a daily basis, we send probes to other planets, we predict the orbit of millions of celestial bodies, we look into the past of our universe... None of these things would be possible with the use of the geocentric model.

It's the same reason why there's a scientific concensus regarding general relativity: not because most scientist just happened to agree on it because they felt like it, but because it's a useful model with predictive powers. Your own GPS depends on that very theory.

So if you're done playing the victim of the "big conspiracy", please start addressing these videos point by point and refute them using evidence. Not this "well, my reference frame should be as valid as yours and relativitiy is pseudo-scientific anyway" crap, because that's nothing but whining. SHOW IT! Cheers.

Scott Reeves wrote:

"You know, you're saying all this nonsense right under a video that is part of a 12-episode series talking about why the geocentric view is inconsistent with our observations and therefore utterly useless for humanity."

You're kidding. I did not realize that. And absolutely nothing I said was nonsense. I stand by every word of it.

"In every video there is at least 3 to 10 points why your model is inviable, many of them using simple math and basic scientific theories like gravity etc."

So what you're saying is that in each video there are at least 3 to 10 points explaining why relativity is an inviable theory. And anyway, the Geocentric model which CHL attacks, in his first video at least, is an obsolete Geocentric model that no modern Geocentrist endorses, except perhaps for Fernieboy100, which makes him the perfect straw man for CHL .

"If a model has efficient predicting capabilites, we use that and ignore the ones that hold no practical value to us or flat-out contradict our observations."

Unfortunately for relativity, the predictions it allegedly makes are predictions for what you would expect to see from within a geocentric reference frame, which is precisely the frame from which we make those observations. This is why relativists, to strictly adhere to the scientific method, must perform those same observations from a cosmologically significant distance from Earth, and in a statistically significant number of reference frames, and replicate the results they obtained on Earth, from within the geocentric reference frame. To date, this has not been done, therefore relativity has not yet passed through the scientific method.

"We launch satelites into space and maintain them on a daily basis, we send probes to other planets, we predict the orbit of millions of celestial bodies, we look into the past of our universe... None of these things would be possible with the use of the geocentric model."

Yes, they would be possible with the geocentric model. They have to be possible with the geocentric model, or relativity is invalid. As for looking into the past of our universe: how would this in particular not be possible from an absolute Geocentric reference frame? Show me a Geocentrist who denies that light takes time to travel from distant parts of the universe, leaving aside any arguments as to the actual size of the universe?

"It's the same reason why there's a scientific concensus regarding general relativity: not because most scientist just happened to agree on it because they felt like it, but because it's a useful model with predictive powers."

I'll simply copy and paste an earlier answer: Unfortunately for relativity, the predictions it allegedly makes are predictions for what you would expect to see from within a geocentric reference frame, which is precisely the frame from which we make those observations. This is why relativists, to strictly adhere to the scientific method, must perform those same observations from a cosmologically significant distance from Earth, and in a statistically significant number of reference frames, and replicate the results they obtained on Earth, from within the geocentric reference frame. To date, this has not been done, therefore relativity has not yet passed through the scientific method.

"So if you're done playing the victim of the 'big conspiracy'"

I didn't mention any big conspiracy, and I didn't imply any big conspiracy. And I would in no way view myself as a victim if there were any such big conspiracy.

"please start addressing these videos point by point and refute them using evidence."

Why would I want to address point by point the videos of someone who is attempting to disprove relativity, whether or not CHL realizes that is what he is actually attempting? More power to him. I just recommend that he be a little less obnoxious in his attempts, and that he should attack a CURRENT Geocentric model, one propounded by most modern Geocentrists, at least in his first video.

"Not this 'well, my reference frame should be as valid as yours and relativitiy is pseudo-scientific anyway' crap, because that's nothing but whining. SHOW IT! Cheers."

I can only assume you mean I'm 'whining' that 'my' absolute Geocentric frame should be as valid as your relativistic geocentric frame. My absolute frame is actually valid and your relativistic one isn't, so I'm not whining. I'm just spreading truth.

Anyway, if that assumption is correct, then yes, the choice available to us is between an absolute Geocentric reference frame and a relativistic geocentric reference frame.

To date, NO observation has been put forward that cannot be accommodated by an absolute Geocentric reference frame. You can cite any sort of evidence you'd like: GPS, Focault's pendulum, geosynchronous satellites, geostationary satellites, parallax, aberration, particle accelerators, Hafele-Keating, cosmic ray muons - anything you'd like, and none of it contradictory to absolute Geocentrism. And according to relativists who actually understand relativity, all the observations support a relativistic geocentric reference frame as well. As I said earlier, you should be admonishing me for advocating an absolute Geocentric frame, not trying to disprove any sort of geocentrism whatsoever.

You have to find a way to choose between the two possible geocentric frames. Since the relativistic geocentric reference frame is dependent upon the truth of the Copernican principle, which is actually a hypothesis that has no empirical support and is basically a twin of the principle of relativity, then the choice is clear: relativity has not been properly tested, yet is presented to the public as scientific fact, making relativity a pseudo-science. Therefore, the choice is between absolute Geocentrism or a pseudo-science. Which does a true scientist choose?

Nope wrote:

OK, so to cut this short, let's start this over again with you describing this so-called "absolute Geocentric model" of yours. And please, don't just refer me to your video. Maybe it's just that I'm an idiot, but I couldn't make any sense of it. I'm more of the reading type.

Scott Reeves wrote:

I don't have any video that I recall which describes the modern geocentric reference frame in detail. [NOTE: at the time I wrote this response, that statement was true. But I have since made such a video, prompted by this very sequence of comments]. Maybe the best way to describe it would be "The relativistic geocentric reference frame, except the absolute version of it." And there's really no difference between the two, other than the assertion that the absolute Geocentric reference frame is...well...absolute as opposed to relative. And it has a capital-G to distinguish it, following the convention of Phil Plaitt, the so-called Bad Astronomer. It looks a lot like the one CHL attempts to debunk in video 10, which he dubs Brahe 2.0. You'll note that he(?) doesn't claim that the model doesn't work or can't be modified to work, only that it fails a shave with Occam's Razor and is "Bollocks!" which doesn't speak to whether or not the model is viable. Occam's Razor isn't a physical law that governs the universe. If it violates Occam's razor, I don't care.

Not being sarcastic, but which video of mine did you watch and couldn't understand (all of them is not a helpful answer) because I've got like 150 or so on YouTube, and if you're going to start asking questions about one, I'll need to know which one you're talking about.

[No further response as yet from Nope]

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